and when the united states entered, we didn't understand the country or the problems. if you went there today, it is not perfect. but progress gets made slowly in any society. and i think just because it is hard and takes a long time doesn't mean it is not important for america's strategic interest in the region, which is stability. >> but you can't do that. i mean the whole idea of building up the national government and confidence, you can't do that without troops on the ground. and so where does -- i mean, if we're pulling out, whether it is we leave no troops, 6,000 troops or 15,000 troops, where is the mission? >> as i outlined in the book in 2009, when i asked president obama to approve more forces, they were really a bridge, to stop the taliban from gaining momentum, to secure our areas and grow the national security forces. they have had time, there has been progress, they have got a long way to go. but there has been a lot of progress. and i think it is time that the afghan forces and afghan government stand on its own as much as possible. they may need some h